I started writing a reply to a comment on the Gay Christian post I did a few weeks ago and it became long enough to turn into a new post. Carolena asked a very good question, is not the only person to have asked it, and is one I was planning to address in that series eventually. (The same commenting rules apply to today’s post as I listed out in my first post) The beginning of the question is this, and you can read it in full by going to the original post’s comment section:
Temptation is not sin. I’m tracking with that.
I cannot however understand why Jim would want to be held captive, confined, or chained to the label of gay Christian. Gay is not who you are! Our identity should be in Christ. All those other labels should fall away. You are a Christian, a child of God. You just so happen to struggle with homosexual temptations. We’re all sinners, so why highlight this sin as if it’s more unique than any other sin?
Noah’s note: The heart of this question arises from 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 …Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men…And that is what some of you were. But you were washed…(read entire text here)
Thanks for the comment Carolena. Good thoughts and good questions. With the “Gay Christian” label, I’ve had to step aside as a heterosexual Christian who has no idea what it’s like to know you’re gay at the age of 7 and listen to those who have had this experience. From the age of 7 and beyond, they now associate themselves as being gay, because “gay” equals so much more than sex (7 year old’s aren’t having sex). Heterosexual Christians define the word gay as meaning the sinful act (and the indulgences in the thought) of sex. That is what gay means to us. But for a gay person, I have found that the word gay means so much more than that. It means same-sex attraction. It also means everything that goes along with being gay, which are the things that permeates all of their life. Tastes, mannerisms, vocal inflections, hobbies, etc. These are obviously going to be vastly different from gay person to gay person, but you hopefully get my point. And Jim or others could elaborate much better than me here, as I am speaking as an observer, not from experience.
So when we say gay is sin, we are saying everything about you and your life is sin.
We are using gay in two very different ways. This is really a fundamental recipe for disaster in any relationship (here the relationship is the Christian community and the GLBT community).
So I think we need to humbly step back and use the GLBT’s definition of “gay” rather than the definition we are used to using. To me, it’s a matter of linguistics and semantics. Some Christians may say, “heck no, gay means what I was always taught it means and we need to use the word that way”, but I think that’s not a mature approach. It’s like a white person telling a black person what it means to be black, or a man telling a woman what it’s like to be a woman. To me, submitting to a gay person’s definition of gay is something I’m fine with because it doesn’t change what the Bible teaches about homosexual sex behavior, which I talked about very separately than I talk about gay. I will talk about homosexual sex behavior as sin and I will say it’s okay to be gay, because I understand you can be celibate and still be gay, using this deeper definition.
So if “gay” is defined as all of who I am and I have to renounce being “gay” in order to be a Christian, then there would be immense shame in this, because I have to hide all of the non-sinful components of who I am. It would feel like you have to renounce your (for example) taste in music, art, and hobbies in order to become a Christian. You would ask, “Why?”, and if you forced yourself to do this, you would walk around with a big sense of shame, and you feel freedom if you didn’t have to do this anymore.
I don’t think it’s in our best use of energy to try to convince Jim or others to not use the word gay to think about who they are, because we’ve been taught to use the word differently. That’s the word gays use to describe all of who they are, we need to respect that. If we’re serious about only the act of sex (and the conscious indulging/movement toward those acts) being a sin, then we have to be okay with this deeper definition of the word gay.
For Jim, I don’t think it’s an “I’m proud of this” statement, it’s simply a “this is who i am” statement and I don’t need to be ashamed of who I am, because who I am in not sinful. A heterosexual single person is still heterosexual if they are celibate, so a gay single person is still gay / homosexual if they are celibate. And I don’t think they are identifying with the temptation, they are identifying with the orientation, which I think are two very different things. (Orientation = “I am not attracted to the opposite sex, I am attracted to the same sex, and I found this out when I was 7”. This is different than the temptation itself. I personally can say “I am attracted to women”, a simple fact, and not sinful. Which is a big difference from being tempted in a specific instance toward lusting over a woman. And even more different from acting on these temptations.)
I think this is the key for the Church to love gays and is the key for gays to be able to receive Christ, submit to God’s commands with their sex lives, but not feel ashamed of who they are and have to deny the non-sinful components of who they are, which only leads to unnecessary shame.
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I’ve heard a gay man say “Did you assume I was sexually active when I said I was gay? Why is that?” I don’t assume anything about my straight friends’ sex lives. Why would I about my gay friends’ sex lives (or lack thereof)?
cjcris23, that is a really succinct way of making an excellent point, thank you. It also shows the danger / propensity we Christians have to immediately incorporate sex (sin) with the term “gay”, when this simply isn’t how the majority of gay people think about the term. It takes humility as a Christian to stop, pause, and really think about this, and humility to realize we’ve been using the word wrong. It’s taken me a while but I see it now, and I see it as the missing link in language that I think could bring a lot of peace in this debate.
I’m not saying it’s going to make the GLBT community be ok with the Bible’s stance on the “sex being a sin” part of it, but at least it would remove the current stance they have in perceiving Christians think the entire orientation, even if you are celibate, is a sin (The Christians who believe this are simply wrong / unbiblical) — because it seems like that is a much bigger attack on someone’s identity and there just isn’t a need for that to get the Bible’s point about the sexual behavior across
One of my good friends is a Christian and gay…and a professor and deep thinker and traveler and many other things:). One of the most hurtful things in his journey has been the immediate rejection of him as a person (and family member) as long as he identifies as gay. He isn’t having sex with anyone, but simply identifying as gay is enough for so many to reject him which is simply unfair and wrong. Hearing his story has definitely opened my eyes and changed my view on many things including supporting gay marriage — I know not all Christians will get that far but getting to the point that your post addresses would make a huge difference for so many.
My friend has said that he is willing to have the “celibacy debate” with anyone, because he can see that argument. But he isn’t willing to have the “being gay is a sin” argument.
– Cara
I’d maybe be willing to buy into gay culture and straight culture, but honestly, I don’t think that’s a fair assumption. Just like urban black culture differs from say suburban black culture. I get that. I don’t know how to say that without it coming across as tactless and stereotypical. Because well, it is stereotypical. But, I also don’t think God wants us to focus on being a part of gay, straight, American, female, male, or global culture. Those cultures and constraints are a distraction from following Him. I want to focus on being a part of an authentic Jesus-following culture. Certainly not to say that Jesus is not present among those other cultures, don’t get me wrong, but I just want to be a part of the culture where Jesus is the very center. Hopefully, you understand what I’m trying to say. My heart is not filled with hatred toward people who are attracted to the same sex, I just don’t think it’s safe to hide behind orientation labels. Satan attacks us where we are comfortable. Don’t think because you are attracted to women and are a man that you can’t be tempted to have sexual relations with a man. Some like to say that love knows no gender, but I like to say that lust knows no gender. Satan doesn’t care who you’re being sexually immoral with.
If our identity is in Christ and we live a life that indicates that we are indeed following Jesus and His example, then we are Christians that produce the fruits of the Spirit- love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. We identify fellow Christians by how we love one another and really it seems that the other eight fruits stem from love. My tastes, mannerisms, vocal inflections, and hobbies, are likely a product of my environment and surroundings. And as it stands, my tastes, mannerisms, vocal inflection, or hobbies frankly mean nothing this side of eternity. I don’t think it would be humble to say or think that my tastes, mannerisms, vocal inflection, or hobbies really matter in regard to salvation. It’s not about me or my identity. It’s about Him. It’s hard to get that through my head sometimes because my pride gets in the way- I get in the way, but I know it’s true.
(It’s not short, and I’m sorry for the length, but it’s worth it!) I think one of the best illustrations is in Francis Chan’s Crazy Love:
“Suppose you are an extra in an upcoming movie. You will probably scrutinize that one scene where hundreds of people are milling around, just waiting for that two-fifths of a second when you can see the back of your head. Maybe your mom and your closest friend get excited…maybe. But no one else will realize it is you. Even if you tell them, they won’t care.
Let’s take it a step further. What if you rent out the theater on the opening night and invite all your friends and family to come see the new movie about you? People will say, “You’re an idiot! How could you think this movie is about you?”
Many Christians are even more delusional than the person I’ve been describing. So many of us think and live like the movie of life is all about us. Now consider the movie of life… GOD creates the world. (Were you alive then? Was GOD talking to you when He proclaimed “It is good” about all He had just made?) Then people rebel against GOD (who, if you haven’t realized it yet, is the main character in this movie), and GOD floods the earth to rid it of the mess people made of it. ……….*omitted text*…………And then, the climax: The Son of GOD is born among the people whom GOD still somehow loves. While in this world, the Son teaches His followers what true love looks like. Then the Son of GOD dies and is resurrected and goes back up to be with GOD. ……From start to finish, this movie is obviously about God. He is the main character. How is it possible that we live as though it is about us? ……We have only our two-fifths-of-a-second-long scene to live. I don’t know about you, but I want my two-fifths of a second to be about my making much of God. First Corinthians 10:31 says, “So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.” That is what each of our two-fifths of a second is about. So what does that mean for you? Frankly, you need to get over yourself.”
When you hear/read Gay Christian, what do you focus on? The Gay or the Christian? If it’s the ‘gay’-even if just for shock value- then maybe that means that Christ isn’t the focus.
I cannot convince or change the hearts and minds of other people. I can personally share that God does change and restore people. I won’t even pretend for a second that I could do that or that it’s somehow by my strength. If what I type on here sounds judgmental, I heartily apologize. Each person struggling with immoral, homosexual desires has a different story. My issue used to stem from confusion and corruption associated with sexual abuse at a very young age with an attacker of the same sex. God has restored and healed me. God is so good to us! Satan has been defeated in that area of my life. It is done. Forgiveness has been extended to my abuser and that has helped with the healing process- you also have to forgive yourself for….well, hating yourself and thoughts that you cannot control. Restoration and healing is possible for everyone. Don’t be ashamed because you have temptation- we’re human, but I don’t think that we should juxtapose our sinful nature with our perfect savior so that we focus on our sin more than our savior.
I think the problem is thinking any kind of identity other than one in Christ will satisfy. It doesn’t matter whether or not your identity is accepted in culture or viewed as a positive or negative. The identity as “Gay (no-sex)” Christian is no different than an identity as “conservative” christian, “baptist” christian, or “heterosexual” christian. It’s all wrong because an identity in something other than Christ is worshipping false idols.
Why encourage division within the church by encouraging people to label themselves by the “non-sinful components of their lives”.
If you want to encourage labels tell them about being an heir, treasure of Christ, adopted, redeemed, etc.
I hope that you shepherd your flock and not drive them to things that fail them and in the process devalue Christ.
I think the importance of the label of Gay Christian fits a place in the current church conversation. It takes on viewing LGBTs as the “OTHER” (easily demonize and faceless groups), and introduces them to their brother or sister who has or is living through this. I don’t think at the core their identity relies on a gay label, but within the body it can be very helpful to them selves and the body they are a part of.
I don’t think Jim is walking around with a sign on his chest saying “I’m a Gay Christian”, it’s more just an internal description of who he is. As in, I (Noah) am an athletic Christian, a funny Christian, a stubborn Christian, and a creative Christian. I’m not labeling myself, only describing myself. We all have these types of descriptions of ourselves that we carry around, it’s a beautiful part of being human. We aren’t recruiting people to be Gay Christians, nor are we recruiting people to be Athletic Christians. We’re just saying we aren’t going to make you trade in your athleticism when you give your life to Jesus (as this brings on unnecessary and unbiblical shame and false guilt), and that identifying fully in Christ 100% for all of your identity does not exclude the things that describe who you are.
Noah, I was exploring in downtown Lansing this afternoon, looking for loft-type apartment possibilities in the area for someone. I walked downstairs from TC pie, and noticed your newest location and picked up the cut the religious cheese.com card.
Given your interest in trying to address the differences between same-sex sexual behavior and same-sex sexual attractions and the identities and labels and spiritual categories associated with them… I thought you might be interested in reading some of my recent blog posts at Our Culture and Society, where I explain my interactions and experiences with a new project highlighted in the media a couple of weeks ago, entitled NALT. I posted at the Religion New Service article on their article about the project as well as in the LA Times.
My most detailed evaluation of John Shore’s and his wife, Catherine’s perspective on what their term, LGBT-affirming Christian, refers to (or better put what they resist committing to defining), is at Our Culture and Society at: http://ethnologystudy.blogspot.com/2013/09/reviewing-john-and-catherine-shores.html
Hi Mike, thanks for checking out my blog and for your link. I’m getting caught up on blog comments today and will definitely check out the link to your blog – thanks!