There were a lot of great comments on my previous Gay Christian post. I have not had a chance to thoroughly look through them all yet, but I will soon and will do a brand new post and will touch on each comment to keep the conversation going. Here’s a response from Jim, I wanted to post it as a new blog post so everyone had better access to it. Feel free to follow-up here, or continue to comment on the first post. We will address your comment either way. Please make sure you follow the commenting rules I posted on the first post, or your comment will be deleted. Thanks everyone for the great comments so far. From Jim:
John Andersen,
Thanks for writing. The question of nature vs nurture is definitely one that comes up a lot and there are a lot of opinions on it. I can easily see why someone who has had homosexual thoughts all of their life (or like me, since I was under 10 years old) would think that they were born a homosexual. I was raised by a very loving mother and a dad who didn’t want kids. I also had 3 older sisters. I was basically raised as a girl; this wasn’t my mom’s intention but my dad was so completely uninvolved that I don’t think my mom knew how else to raise me. So clearly this caused a lot of identity issues for me as well as (I believe) creating a powerful need for male attention and affirmation. Of course there is a lot more to how I was raised, etc. but the question is: Would I have been gay anyway (was I born gay), or did I become gay because of how I was raised? I think that we are all born into sin and that each of us has a predisposition towards certain sin/sins. What tempts you may not tempt me at all. I don’t think that I was born gay…I think that I probably had a predisposition or a personality that was more “susceptible” to homosexuality and then add how I was raised and there wasn’t much chance for me being straight. I see my homosexuality as a “wound” that needs healing–a complicated group of interwoven issues. I used to hate the word process; I’d much rather have a quick fix or cure, but I have seen God at work in my life bringing change and healing. I used to only see my homosexuality as a curse, but God has used it to teach me to trust Him, to show me His love for me and to encourage others. If I was “born this way”, I still believe that my responsibility is to surrender my sexuality to God. I may not have had a choice of how I was raised or if I was predisposed but I DO have a choice of how I live my life. When I read the verse in Romans 1 regarding “exchanging the natural for the unnatural”, it makes me think of hedonists…people who worship pleasure and are often open to trying anything for a new “high”. I don’t personally relate to making any kind of conscious “exchange”…maybe Noah can add some insight since he is much more familiar with the Bible and context than I am.
-Jim
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Here is how I see that “exchanging natural for unnatural” passage — the passage talks about men exchanging sex with women for sex with men and then uses the phrase “exchanging natural for unnatural.”
I don’t take it as “being gay is unnatural” but rather that those men who had been with women were doing something unnatural for them in beginning to have sex with men instead.
I could get much more detailed in how I often wonder how much of what Paul writes is just his opinion — he clearly states at one point “I, not The Lord, says this” and I wonder how many times that was true.
Hey Cara, You know I usually don’t even like reading a lot of what Paul said. He seems so bossy and harsh. 🙂 I’ve heard some other people who interpret the natural vs unnatural passage the way that you have. The trouble that I have with it is this: if it is natural for some people to be gay and natural for some to be straight, what would it matter if they switched around once in awhile? Why would the verses that follow that say that those who did so became so depraved? In context of the previous and following verses, as well as other passages and the overall heterosexual nature of the Bible (We are the bride, God is the groom is talked about throughout the Bible–referring to male and female, etc.), I believe that there is another explanation. I’ll have to bug Noah to get in on this conversation because he has done much more studying of context and interpretation that I have.
I agree with Cara. Paul is not referring to Christians, but pagan idolaters participating in activity like orgies. The one has nothing to do with another. I like the posts I see such as a bibleless Christianity and all Gresham Machen wrote like in his book, ‘ Christianity and Liberalism’.but will write flat out that I have noticed a trend on line across the boards. The ‘one supposed ‘sin’ that is called out if something is to be called out despite all great arguments for The Faith suddenly becomes ‘homosexuality’. That is in fact only going to promote further The Problem that will turn people away. This ‘issue’ runs across every religion in the world, even with atheists. That should tell us that there is more going on. Afterall, Adam and Eve did not have sex until after they were already spiritually dead , in sin, and under The Law of Sin and Death. Jesus stated: No can come to Me unless My Father enables Them, and no one knows The Son but The Father and no one Knows The Father but The Son and they whom He so chooses to Reveal Him. Paul also wrote that In the Kingdom there is neither male nor female. And Jesus said He turned and said to them, “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters — yes, even his own life — he cannot be My disciple. And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.” If you do not hate your wife, you cannot be his disciple. Sexuality has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. God gave a person their sexuality for a reason. Maybe there are those not attracted to the opposite sex to control the sinner population, only sinners can breed more sinners, which is what ever ‘heterosexual person is” despite their sexuality.It is what either does with it, that is not for someone else to see but between them and The LORD, assuming one is in fact in Christ , which is debatable. He who turns to the Law is under the Law,and if they break one commandment they have broken them all. If one is ‘turning to The law’ in regard to sexuality which is in fact what they are doing, they are under it.
But as I told you, you have seen Me and still you do not believe. Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.…are you going to tell us that God does not give a person who is not heterosexual to Christ? That clearly is false. You want to tell a 12 year old that unless they are straight they are none of His? That is a call no one ought be brazen enough to make, for if anyone causes ‘one of these little one’s to stumble it would be better for them if they had a millstone hung around their neck and they were tossed into the sea’. To imply that that might well be so but being ‘homosexual’ is a sin has to be a lie (despite what their actual behavior is)..because if we we walk in the Light as He is Light He is Righteous and Just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.There seems to be a whole lot of ‘front-loaded’ assumptions going on concerning a persons’ sexuality with a lot of discarding other things …for example,being grossly overweight.All people who are over weight are sinners, look around. Go tell the next 70 year old man and woman they are in sin for being overweight, even if their metabolism or body clock makes it a near impossibility to come to a ‘normal’ weight range and see if that is not laying a heavy burden of guilt. He who comes to Me I will by no means turn away. He did not say: “any heterosexual who comes to me I will by no means turn away’. Nor did he ever ‘change’ a persons sexuality. It’s nothing short of self-righteous prejudice. Assume nothing. How many ‘homosexuals’ have committed suicide or fall victim to all kinds of disorders on account of the world’s (and religions) attitude on the subject. Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes will enter into the kingdom of God before you will ” He said to the Pharisees who had established a righteousness of their own.It’s a matter of Nature and rebirth. What matters is a New Creation, the flesh profits nothing. and again,’There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all ONE in Christ Jesus.’.
Romans 3:22
And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction